I’ve had several conversations lately with women about the role of chivalry in relationships. I ask the same questions: Is there still a place for chivalry in relationships today? What are your expectations, if any? What crosses the line from a respectful gesture to an insulting one?
I’ve gotten varied answers to these questions, but most seem to agree that there is still a place for a man to treat a woman differently than he would treat another man, especially in a romantic setting. From there, the waters get murkier.
For instance some seem to still like to have their car door opened for them, but others find this condescending. Some want to be treated as equals down to splitting dinner on a date, but others think a man should pay. Most want to be treated with a level of respect and kindness, but some want that only to be as much as the man would treat anyone else.
The murkiness here seems to be in part due to the aftermath of the Feminist revolution. Men don’t want to seem like they’re insulting women, so many intentionally shy away from any gestures that seem like they’re in any way condescending (to be fair, there are also plenty of men who don’t do them just because they’re unthoughtful idiots). I’ve also noticed that some women shy away from openly admitting they like gestures like this for fear of seeming like that weaker sex stereotype that Feminism rages against.
So in an attempt to get this conversation going between men and women, let me set out what I believe to be common ground here:
- Any special gestures a man does for a woman should be with an eye towards showing respect and appreciation for the woman (and the woman should give the man the benefit of the doubt that this is his motivation)
- Any gestures done should be in no way arrogant on the part of the man (e.g. ordering dinner for the woman without prompting)
- If a woman makes it clear that she finds something condescending, the man should cease and desist. However…
- The woman should make it clear to the man if she finds something condescending, and not expect him to be a mind reader.
- The decision about what a woman finds condescending and what she doesn’t is entirely up to her, and should be respected by the man.
With those ground rules in mind, what are the specifics?
Women: What would you like to see men do more of? Less of? Not at all? What do you find condescending and why?
Men: What have been your frustrations with reading women in this area? What do you usually try to do or not do?
And of course, from both sides: any horror stories of chivalry gone horribly wrong?
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Last month (ish) on Yelp, there was a Talk thread that got into what feminism meant and how it related to chivalry. (http://bit.ly/ctM6QV)
Now, if I can air out a frustration: Ladies, letting a man pull your chair out for you or hold the elevator door does NOT mean you’re giving up your rights as a woman. Courtesy and respect are rights of the strong, independent woman, too!
I love genuine compliments, always. Most of the time, having the car door opened for me is a real treat. And rarely, having a man order for me in a restaurant is very sweet and well meaning.
Given our constant state of hyperawareness and political correctness, I guess chivalry can be a tricky area. You never know what kind of man or woman you’re dealing with.
But if we all erred a little more on the side of Tiffany’s Table Manners and less on The Rules, I think we’d be better off.
@Paige Interesting – Yelp wouldn’t be the first place I would expect that kind of conversation to happen.
Agreed that it’s a tricky area, but glad to hear that you’re open to it. I think men need to know there are instances where women welcome and appreciate these kinds of things. I’m of the opinion that (thoughtful) men want to do it, but usually lean towards being conservative for fear of being condescending. I think most need to take more risks and do these kinds of things more often.
As a feminist, it is hard to admit that sometimes I don’t want to be treated like “one of the guys”. While I want fair payment for my work and equal opportunity to have my voice heard, it’s nice to be treated like a lady when I’m out with a guy.
Personally, I don’t mind if the guy pays for dinner once in a while, but overall, I usually believe in equal responsibility. Meaning, if the guy pays for one dinner, I might pay next time or if he pays for a movie, I grab the popcorn.
I think in general, both parties, regardless of sex or gender, should be respectful and considerate of one another. If that includes someone offering to open a door for me, that’s lovely. However, if you’re a dude and we’re on a date, don’t be totally shocked if I open a door for you once in a while, too!
And, just for the record, flowers are *always* appreciated.
@Sara And there’s the rub, isn’t it? From my experience, many women have a hard time drawing that line. But it sounds like you’re willing to draw the line yourself for any guy that asks, so bravo for that.
Have you had any experiences where a guy was “shocked” when you turned the tables? Now I’m curious.
I think there is absolutely a place for chivalry in modern relationships and in daily interactions between men and women.
For instance, I would love to see more men give up their seats on the train or bus to women, even if they’re not elderly or pregnant. I’ve had a man offer his seat to me a few times and each time I have thanked him profusely and asked him to please spread the word to his male friends that we like that sort of thing. I realize I’m not speaking for all women here, but I find it to be a very kind and appreciated gesture. The men who I’ve gotten into conversations about this all say that they fear doing it, because they’re afraid of insulting a woman. Ladies, please take hold of your senses. If a man offers his seat, it’s not because he thinks you’re weak and can’t stand up. He’s simply being a gentleman. Embrace it.
To sum up (and I’m sorry if this offends some feminists’ sensibilities) I’ve always felt that I don’t want to be treated the same as a man. I want to be treated better.
@Anna To be honest, even agreeing with you (and I do) makes me feel like I’m going to be insulting someone. I guess that proves how hesitant us guys are to treat you with any level of difference for fear of insulting you. Glad to hear you (and others here) standing up and saying it’s OK for us to be gentlemen.
I came on here to comment, but Anna summed it up for me! “Ladies, please take hold of your senses. If a man offers his seat, it’s not because he thinks you’re weak and can’t stand up. He’s simply being a gentleman. Embrace it.”
I appreciate chivalrous gestures, but I see it more as general human kindness. If my boyfriend is carrying a bunch of bags, I’ll run to unlock and open the door for him (though he usually gets there first); if there’s a pregnant woman or a man with crutches on the subway, I’ll give up my seat. It’s the thought that counts.
@Traci Excellent point, and one that I should have made in the post: if a guy does something out of pride (i.e. refusing a woman’s help), it’s much more insulting, isn’t it? So maybe we can agree that the chivalry can go both ways.
Thanks Traci!
If the guy is a gentleman? I embrace it. It shows that he respects not only me, but our relationship. In that same token, women should show respect as well. Pick up the tab every now and then. Surprise him with tokens of appreciation. Buy him a massage. Help him out and lend an ear. You don’t need to play games – its too exhausting. Be blunt and say what you’re thinking. You’ll be respected in the end.
The thing is, relationships should be equal partnerships. Make each other feel great, that’s all that matters. It depends on how you take the respect. I’m very independent and can take care of myself, but sometimes, damn it, it’s nice to not worry. The shoe can always be on the other foot. It’s a respect thing for both parties.
LAF
@LAF Traci just said the same thing – respect should always go both ways.
Re: being blunt. ALWAYS. Guys need it more than you ladies realize.
The number of guys, in my experience, who will treat a woman this nicely AND who happen to be single is very slim, especially in a world where we as women are told we must find a man and manners be damned. I have been treated, and seen women treated, like doormats and while I don’t mind standing up and being single, there’s very few women who would rather stand up for a few good manners than allow themselves be be alone.
The problem, as Paige mentions above, is that a lot of how chivalry is perceived by women is that allowing a man to say, pull out a chair, the stigma is “hey you’re trampling my rights as a woman and I will NOT make you a sandwich!” So the opposite has happened in dating – men have stopped paying for dinners or, worse – flat out calling women degrading things in public (fat, ugly, etc), or, as I’ve experienced, men throwing things at women or hitting them in a public space! And it’s ok, because the man can just move on to the next woman who is willing to deal with it!
In both cases, we’ve allowed men to have the upper hand, which is the exact opposite of that feminism approach mentioned earlier.
Nobody wins anymore. Being a jerk is something we can universally criticize, but not universally get rid of…
@Adrienne My apologies on behalf of guys – we can suck sometimes. Especially in the scenarios you’re describing.
But don’t give up hope that the overall situation can change. If you saw my last post, I think that there are some guys out there that are now standing up for more old fashioned kinds of values like chivalry – but in a way that’s not sexist or insulting, and can be a companion of feminism. That’s my hope at least.
I could be a stereotypical Baylor girl* and stomp my feet and whine if the guy doesn’t blow serious cash on every date… but it’s much easier to just be honest
Again, mutual respect, kindness, etc!
*
I’ll give this whole conversation a little bit of a spin. I admit that I myself shy away from a lot of this chivalrous behavior, mainly because in the past when I have done so women tend to get way to attatched to it right away. I don’t know if this is because it is rare or if it sends some kind of message that I as an imperceptive male don’t realize I am sending. I have effectively been “trained” not to do this sort of thing unless I want something in return which kind of cancels it out altogether. I don’t know if any of this is helpful but I felt this stream needed some male input. Have at it.
@Ryan Good distinction – are chivalrous gestures OK/appropriate in non-romantic relationships? Anna seemed to think so in her example about public transportation, but not a lot of others have addressed this.
Well, ladies?
I’m not a feminist by any means, but I’d like to think of myself as an independent woman (cue Destiny’s Child/Charlie’s Angels song). I hate when men use the excuse that chivalry is dead, because honestly? Any guy that holds the door open for me scores some major points. Even if they’re just my guy friends, which is maybe a little weird.
I don’t think I’ve ever hit the point on a date where I’ve felt like a guy was being condescending. I think I’m pretty good at holding my own ground, in the nicest way possible. I’m really weird about men paying on dates, though. I always want to pay. I don’t know why, something about me where I don’t want a guy thinking I’m incapable of paying. Which sounds really odd, but I like to think of myself as self-sufficient.
I think all in all it depends on the guy, and at least for my age (21) how they were raised. Some people I know were raised not to have manners, so they don’t. Whereas other men just know that being polite is the right thing to do.
And that brings me to another point – love when men say please and thank you and are gracious. Not to me per se, but if we’re at a restaurant. I think I find it attractive because it’s SO easy, and yet no one really does it.
Otherwise, great post
Look forward to coming back and reading more often.
@Samantha Thanks for the kind words and the thoughts. (Not saying thanks just because you asked for it.
)
And I think it’s totally OK if you want to pay. My question: how up front are you with the guy about that? Always interested to hear how women convey (or don’t) their expectations.
I’d like to add to my earlier comment and echo some things others have said. In a relationship, courtesy and thoughtfulness should absolutely go both ways. So while there may not be a word for it when it comes from us, we should definitely strive to be considerate to our partners and, indeed, to everyone.
Also, Adrienne brought up a good point. I think it’s true that some women shun chivalrous gestures because they think it indebts them somehow. They feel that if they accept such gestures, they have to reciprocate with behaviors that might be anathema to them as feminists. I don’t think this is the case at all and I don’t think most men think this way (fellas, back me up here).
And Caleb, yes, I absolutely think men should be chivalrous to ladies they are not in relationships with. I’m always so proud when my husband does it.
@Anna I’d definitely agree with you, if only because men don’t think that far ahead (sorry, guys – you know it’s true). And thanks for the clarity about chivalry for all women. I think that’s good for us to hear as well.
Anyone else want to comment about that? I’d like to hear how many agree.
Caleb,
I’m really candid and honest. I don’t know, I feel really helpless when a guy pays. I want to show him that I have my own thing going on, and I’m not “that” girl if you catch my drift. I’ve had friends say, “go on the date, it’s a free dinner!” and it makes me so mad! I never want anyone to think that’s why I’d devote my night to someone. I want to get to know him. So if he pays for the first date and tells me that he’ll get the bill, then I’ll offer to pay for the movie that night OR if I like him and want to see him again, that I’ll get the next dinner.
If the guy is cool, it’s never awkward. And I think they secretly appreciate that I’m ready and willing to pay. I think…
@Samantha It’s interesting that you say that you don’t want to be “that” girl, and being paid for is what signifies that to you. I bet there are other things that signify that for other women.
I’m glad you’re up front about your expectations. I open communication is the most important part. Let’s face it – guys are dense. They need straight-forward answers to these kinds of questions.
Caleb:
I am very happy to know that chivalry is making a comeback. Thank you indeed for exploring the topic.
I am a product of the Old World upbringing, and maybe a few years older than some other ladies that commented here. In my book chivalry is not only nice to see and experience, I think it is very much necessary to the survival of romance in the relationship. I don’t think I ever was romantically linked to someone, who was not chivalrous, in the beginning at the very least.
I was raised by strong, confident women. My mother and grandmother taught me the importance of being able to stand on my own, of being fiercely independent. However, they also taught me the importance of being a lady. No matter what anyone thinks, men and women are different. And asknowledging those differences is the first step to mutual respect and admiration. No matter what, I find that being treated respectfully is my right. And respect comes in many shapes and sizes. Why not chivalry?
I have been single for a while now, and I am glad for it. Better single than sorry, I say. However, being single I have had a lot of dating experiences. And for me personally, chivalry matters. If I don’t see any signs of it, there will be no second date.
Now, I agree, some things should be approached on the basis of equality. Fiscal responsibility should be shared. While I enjoy being treated first few times out of the gate, I prefer to split the bill on the first date most of the time. This echoes some other comments here, I feel that this way I am under no pressure to agree to another date. But should there be future dates, I will reciprocate the meals I am treated to either with picking up the bill other times, or cooking a romantic dinner, etc. Letting me order for myself is imperative, and letting me pick the restaurant and/or activity is a nice gesture. It lets me know the man recognizes that I am capable of contributing, am familiar with my environment, and know how to have fun.
That being said, I do wish men would practice certain chivalrous behaviors. One in particular is getting up from the seat to greet me, as well as when I leave/return to my seat. I feel this shows a great deal of respect for me as a person and as a woman. Helping me with my coat/wrap is a nice trait that I don’t see too often. Opening doors is great. And walking on the street side of the sidewalk, letting me walk on the building side — that one actually stems from concerns for the woman’s safety. Picking me up at the door if it’s raining. All signs of respect and care in my book. Bring them on.
I also agree with Anna. The man I am with needs to show respect and chivalry for other women. My best friend, who is a man of Old World upbringing, treats me with the same courtesy and respect he shows his girlfriend. Exceptional man is always exceptional, right?
And yes, flowers are always welcome!
@Tatiana Seems like you have a lot of experience in this area. I’m curious – since you’re “a few years older” (I won’t ask for specifics), have you witnessed a tangible transition in manners between men and women? If so, what’s that been like?
Tatiana brings up a good point about age – I am most likely younger than most of you, and can only judge for my own age group here, but younger guys (18-28, we’ll say) seem to have the lack of chivalry that I have experienced. I don’t know when the shift began, but I would be interested in Tatiana’s answer to Caleb’s question!
I wonder how much of what’s being referred to as ‘chivalry’ may simply be good ol’ fashioned manners? When you’re walking back from lunch with a group of people and you get to the office door first, isn’t it just polite to hold the door open, regardless of the genders involved? If you invite someone to dinner, regardless if it’s a date or a business meeting, isn’t it polite for the event’s initiator to offer to pay?
Is chivalry just applying proper manners to a dating context? Or is there something else to it, something more meaningful?
While we’re at it, is chivalry a one-way street, only gestures from men towards women? Is there some kind of “compensation” that women return to chivalrous men? Or is chivalry a one-sided nicety grounded in a supposed inequality between the sexes?
@Chris I’d agree that in most cases they’re probably the same, but I do think there are instances where they differ. For instance, would you pull out a man’s chair? Help him put on his jacket? Give up your seat for him on the train?
And it’s definitely a two-way street – at least many of the women commenting here seem to think so.
@Caleb:
You are right, I have experienced chivalry taken to the extreme, lack of it, and most things in between. And the more tangible shift in manners between men and women that I witnessed is probably more of a cultural one. I come from the Eastern European block, the land that for a long time was isolated from most Western influences. That may or may not be the reason chivalry is still alive and kicking there, I am not an expert. The difference between manners there and here was, for me, very perceptible. It could be that we were not exposed to the feminist movement, I don’t really know.
The transition here hasn’t been as radical, but I would say for me still very tangible. Chivalry has been declining slowly but steadily in my opinion during my time here, since early 1990s to today.
The biggest shift however, in my opinion, came with the advances of technology and internet. It is no longer necessary to make personal social connections, and perhaps the manners have gone by the wayside.
Overall, it seems, we are becoming more calloused. And that is hard to stomach. Far be it from me to play damsel in distress, but when on one particularly slippery winter night this year I fell down a flight of concrete stairs at a train station in rush hour, no one stopped to help. Men, women of all ages and trades went about their business, choosing not to get involved.
So, yes, I am hoping to see chivalry make a comeback. In some form that hopefully will not insult the feminist movement. What that will be remains to be seen.
@Tatiana Wow. So sorry to hear about your experience on the stairs. That’s more than a gentleman problem – that’s a humanity problem. And it sucks.
The cultural differences are very interesting. My theory would be that it’s different here because of the feminist movement, but I’d love to have someone smarter than me dig into that.
@Chris:
In my opinion, chivalry and manners are one and the same. Perhaps, chivalry is a slightly more elaborate version of manners. And yes, I feel that chivalry should be reciprocated. Women should be chivalrous too. We sometimes forget that, and for that I am sorry.
@Adrienne:
Men under 30 are a different generation. I find them more timid, and far less well-mannered. There are of course notable exceptions. My response to your comment would be when you live in the world of technology and internet dating, you have less and less necessity to practice social etiquette. Sadly.
@Tatiana: I would be genuinely interested to hear from you (and other women) about what women being chivalrous (reverse chivalry?) looks like.
@Caleb: Ha, not so much
Still, I wonder how many of those chivalrous actions were born out of necessity. Back in the day, was it genuinely tricky for women to get into / out of chairs, perhaps because of the elaborate garments of the time? I wonder if the same could be true of the jacket as well.
At this point, most chivalrous acts exist for their form, not their function. I guess the question becomes, are these motions still equally communicative? Are they still sending the same messages to that special someone that they would have hundreds of years ago? Based on the responses, sounds like the answer is… depends?
@Chris ‘Depends’ is right. Seems like that can only be answered by each individual woman.
@Chris:
Well, the examples of a woman’s chivalry I can give you are my own practices. So, I cannot speak for any other lady out there. But here are a few. When a car door is opened for me, I always reach over and unlock the gentleman’s door. If we are walking through the double doors, and the first one is held open for me, I open the second door for the gentleman. If offered to be picked up at the door because it is raining, I offer him my umbrella. Thank you notes are a must, whether for a particularly lovely meal, flowers, or anything else that moves me to write them. Sharing fiscal responsibility as I described in my original comment: I pick up the restaurant check or price of admission for activities for dates frequently, particularly when those were suggested by me. If I encounter an elderly gentleman, a man of any age with an injury/disability, or a man of any age with a small child on public transportation, I always offer them my seat. Unlocking and holding the doors, and clearing the path when a man is carrying something heavy is another example. If a man fixes something at my house that I couldn’t manage myself, he always gets a home cooked meal and a refreshing beverage of choice. These are some of the examples I can give you based on what I feel is fair and reciprocal.
@Caleb @Chris:
Interesting point about form vs. function. OK, let me give you some insight into these from a woman’s perspective. Pulling out the chair was probably born from the garments. In fact, a lot of female garments still cause problems. Long dresses, high heels, etc. All recipe for disaster, so helping with the chair can still be very beneficial to us, fair ladies! Helping with a jacket: well, unlike you, strong silent wallet-carrying types, we carry handbags. Trying to put a jacket on while holding a handbag is cumbersome. And personally, I don’t like setting my purse on the floor. So, very helpful trait indeed.
Another EXTRAORDINARILY beneficial function of such gestures in my opinion, is the perpetuation of romance. Brushing a woman’s arm while helping her with the jacket, or wrapping your arms around her just for a brief moment while helping her with a wrap, leaning closer for a second while helping her with the chair, so you can maybe catch the aroma of her perfume… You get the point.
Call me old-fashioned. Or a hopeless (correction, hopeful) romantic. I will proudly wear both.
It is dead in my mind. It has no place in modern society. If I am expected to be a ‘real man’ and pay for your dinner, then I expect you to stay in the kitchen, barefoot & pregnant. Don’t get upset. One archaic mind deserves another.
I would not pull a chair out for a stranger, so I won’t do it for my date. I won’t pay for a strangers dinner, so I won’t do it for my date. I will, however, open a door for a stranger, so I will do that for a date.
I don’t get many second dates, but at least I can walk away knowing I treated women as equals.
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